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Posted: Mon May 22, 2006 4:36 am Post subject: Pets, pet control, pet agro and pet tricks. (very long)
Hi all, I posted this thread on my guilds web site, thought I'd copy it and post it here, hope it helps
I am making this post in response to the post on raid discipline, I have also mentioned before that I would make a post on pets and how they can or should be used in a group or a raid.
This isn't the full post on pets and mages that I have in mind yet, I will edit this post and add more when I have time to put it all together.
A few months ago, I was pretty argumentative about assist calls, and I know I rubbed a couple of people up the wrong way, probably due to the way I presented my case.
In a raid, I usually act pretty much the same way I will in a group, I am constantly turning around, looking in every direction for threats of adds that people concentrating on the main mob may not notice, and on many many occasions have seen an add making a beeline towards someone and set my pet on it while trying to draw other peoples attention to the adds at the same time.
Pet hold is very useful, the upgrade AA pet focus is even more useful, I have seen multiple adds attacking casters or healers, sent my pet in to agro one mob on my pet, then told pet to ignore that mob and attack another, then another, drawing agro on pet from multiple mobs to round them up, then moved away from the rest of the raid while backing my pet off to pull the mobs away from the rest of the raid while hailing the mobs at the same time to bring offtanks or mezzers attention to what's happening, then sat back and started chain healing pet while waiting for the tanks or mezzers to take over.
This is what I call pet crowd control.
Sometimes I do send my pet in a little early when I see mobs incoming, especially when I see adds coming with the main assist mob.
My reason for this is that a pet will never miss its target, it will always stop a mob dead in its tracks before it gets too close, seperating the adds from the main incoming mob.
This makes it a lot easier for the mezzers or main offtanks to target the mobs, and deal with them, it also helps to keep agro off slowers and enchanters should the mez fail, and pet stuns can also stop a mob long enough for a tank to engage and gain agro on a mob that is pingponging around should multiple people start taking agro from each other.
I have seen mass chaos caused in raids by trash mob adds coming in and attacking random players, interrupting healers in the middle of a CH chain, and even wipes caused just by one add.
It would be a good idea in my opinion for pet classes to have their own chat channel to try and work together as a unit.
In any raid we probably have a combination of at least ten to fifteen main pet casters, those being beastlords, necromancers and mages.
All those pets have a massive potential for either causing chaos or creating order in a chaotic situation if discipline is maintained.
I mentioned before about pets being disposable tanks, I will eplain this here now.
Imagine a situation where we plan on taking on a large mob that hits very hard and we are short on healers.
Now, everyones heard of pet chain casting, this can be used very effectively nowadays to weaken a mob, to knock it's hit points right down to the point where the mob enrages.
Necros and mages both have a fantastic spell available to them called Bulwark Of Calliav and beastlords also have a similar spell. Once cast it stays on the pet for about 45 minutes and has a recast time of roughly 35 seconds.
This spell will allow a pet to absorb four hits (three in the case of beastlords) whether the mob hits for one point of damage, or a million points of damage without getting hurt
So, each pet can take at least four or five hits from ANY mob before it is destroyed.
Now, each pet caster should have a spell set that will allow them to summon, buff and (in the case of mages) equip a new pet quickly and send it back into battle as soon as it is ready.
Pets cost very little mana to create, buff and equip, with ten to fifteen pet classes chaining pets in this way almost any mob can be tanked down without making much of a dent in anyones mana, while the rest of the raid sits back and waits or deals with adds.
Even shadowknight and shaman pets overtime will also generate some agro and will help by absorbing one or two hits once their agro has overtaken that of the newer pets in the agro chain.
Other classes in the same group can also slap on a few buffs as the pets are summoned to either increase the damage the pets do, or allow them to absorb more damage without drawing any agro, including bards haste or regen song, as long as the pets aren't in the range of the song when they engage the mob, the bards song will continue to affect the pets for a few moments after they have left the songs area of effect and started beating on the mob.
It is also well known that a mob will always hit any player that gets into melee range and ignore any pets that are attacking, however much agro the pets have generated on themselves.
So, while this is going in, tanks can step in and out of melee range without taunting or doing any damage to absorb some hits themselves.
This process may take some time, but it is safe, it guarantees a constant flow of dps and tanking power, as long as the mob doesn't have insane regen or enrage every twenty seconds, it's hitpoints will be greatly reduced for the time when the main tank steps in and the complete heal chain begins.
The tank only has to go in and use a heavy taunt to take the agro from the pet casters who have taken the mob down to 25% hitpoints or less.
At this point, the rest of the raid simply acts as if the mob had only just been engaged, main tank steps in, complete heal chain starts, then the whole raid dps focusses on the mob.
The only exception to the rest of the raid sits back and waits policy is that a slower and other debuffers or two may have to eat a death at the start if their debuffs cause more agro on them than any of the pets in the chain, or they will have to debuff then relog immediately.
Anyway, as I mentioned before, I made this post in response to the thread on raid agro control, I have noticed and pointed out myself recently that several nukers (I won't name names) and even a couple of druids seem to be in the habit of generating too much agro on themselves by nuking too hard too early.
Here I am addressing the issue of agro and also making a few more points regarding pets.
My tip for mages is this, do what I do, if you are unsure if a mob will go down or not, don't nuke harder than you would if you were soloing, you know how hard you can nuke while allowing your pet to hold agro.
Here's an example, I wish I'd taken a log of this, but this is from memory;
A couple of months ago, all the tanks died during a raid we did with DT, I can't recall the exact zone at the moment.
All the nukers died, and all the other pet classes also died.
The mob we were fighting had a nasty aoe that drained a lot of our mana and also had a very nasty rampage.
I realized early that I didn't have much mana to nuke with, and my best bet for sustaining dps was to keep my pet alive, pet heals are conjuration based, and my main specialization is conjuration.
So, during the fight, I did throw in a few nukes, but was very careful with mana and agro, everytime my pets health got low (I saw how fast everyone elses pets died) I backed the pet off and healed it or let it regen for a while then sent it back in again.
Eventually, the only thing that stood between, a handful of rangers (YES, the rangers were still alive!!!!!!) and a few healers was me and my pet.
As soon as I saw people dying, I cast bulwark of calliav on my pet, the mob turned on my pet after the last tank went down, now I knew how hard this mob could hit, from the very start of the fight I was watching the main tank to see how his hitpoints were moving, and I knew I could last only a short while, so I made the most of it, hoping to give the remaining few a chance to finish it.
My pet stood there and tanked the mob for a good five seconds before bulwark of calliave wore off, I then managed to get two heals off allowing pet to tank a further ten seconds or so, I was fighting a losing battle at this point, lay on hands was due to refresh in just a few seconds, pets health was about 10% I knew I couldn't get another heal off in time so backed pet off and stepped forwards, mob followed pet towards me and started beating on me, Bulwark of calliav due for refresh five seconds(ish) /click pet lay on hands, pets health back to about 60% (luckilly I got a crit pet LOH for 4668 hps) sent pet back into attack and ran backwards out of melee range with my health at around 25%.
Recast Bulwark of calliav, allowing pet to tank mob maybe another eight seconds while I cast two more heals, click healing potion another ten seconds.
Then pet died, mob charged me, splat! dead mage four seconds.
LOADING PLEASE WAIT......
As I was typing to ask if it was a wipe while standing naked in the guild lobby, I got a tell from one of the Distant Thunder members saying that was amazing, and thanking me, saying that I'd given the few remaining people time to do what they needed and finish the mob off, and had a big smile on my face when this was also mentioned in the raid channel.
I have always wanted to prove the point I have been trying to make about pets and how useful they can be in raids, and considered this a point well made.
Anyway, back to the point on agro never nuke harder than you would in a group unless you know that the mob is going to take a dirt nap very quickly,
You know how well your tank can hold agro, stick to the rules.
Pet classes, try not to generate more agro than your pet will, and try not to let your pet get killed, if the tanks go down, you may be the last line of defence between the healers and whatever death awaits them, you may even give them time to rez people and get the tank back in there.
When pets are put in guard mode, they will always turn and face the nearest threatening mob, they can even track mobs through walls.
Earth pets root lasts about ten seconds, mobs that hit too hard when soloing can be kited by repeated /pet attack /pet hold.
The temporary pet called Raging Servant lasts about twelve seconds and can hit for 780 damage, this causes a huge amount of agro on the pet, and it can be used to hold agro while mob is tashed, slowed and debuffed, it has a fair few hitpoints and can tank hard hitting mobs for the full twelve seconds that it is up.
It will also generate more agro than any other pet if cast at the start of a battle.
Used in conjunction with an earth pet with root spell casting turned on (if you have the AA to turn spell casting on pets on and off which is absolutely necessary if you want to use earth pet in raids or most groups), this pet will get closer than the earth pet so will absorb damage whenever it is cast.
If a fight is only going to last a short while, it may be worth dumping your whole mana pool into chain casting these pets, you can begin casting the next one before the last one pops, great if you specialize in conjuration.
Unfortunately this pet costs 1600 mana to cast.
Used in conjunction with pet heals, Bulwark of Calliav, pet lay on hands and swarm pets, some very hard hitting mobs can be pet tanked this way even without cleric heals.
Frenzied burnout AA will also cause pets to generate massive agro, allowing nukers to nuke hard.
PET PULLING!
I only learned how to do this last week when pulling the Rathe council, this skill is great, since then I have been using it a lot in Freeport arena instanced missions, single pulling mobs with ease.
Ok, the pet to use is one that would con green to the mobs you are pulling, the level 52 fire pet is good.
Firepets cast pretty long range nukes, I haven't experimented yet, but I think giving them summoned extended range items might extend them.
The idea is to tell pet to attack the mob you want without getting into agro range yourself.
Most times, the pet will begin casting it's nuke immediately, this takes about five or six seconds to cast.
As soon as you see the pet begin casting, hit pet hold and start running, the pet will then continue casting the nuke then immediately start following you.
The pet will most probably not get hit by the mob it is pulling, though best to have Bulwark of calliav on it just in case, and of course velocity.
To send a pet into melee a mob, you have to be reasonably close to the mob, within say 60-80 feet, if you sit outside that range, you can tell the pet to cast, and it won't go into melee the mob but will begin casting its nuke when it decides to, this may start ten seconds after you have told it to attack, or it may happen immediately.
You don't even have to have the mob in sight, you could be across the other side of the zone after having parked your pet in pulling range of the mob and got the mob targetted, simply tell pet to attack when you are ready, then hit pet follow and pet hold the moment you see your pet appear in the HOTT window, the pet will then pull the mob all the way to you.
Don't forget to add your pets self casting damage shield to pets list of blocked spells, if the pet does any damage to the mob it will be summoned and killed, then you will also be summoned and killed.
That's all there is to it. _________________ Beladonna A`tropine,
Level 70 Dark Elf Battle Mage (1101 AA's)
Hghest crit so far...11726 (32K vs summoned)
Who wants to marry me? I need a new pet!
Placos A'tropine,
Level 64 Dark Elf Warrior,
12 AAs
Any pet user on an AH raid is required to have the /pet hold command. I would like you all to be working towards the /pet focus command as well (it is required for all new applicants). This includes shaman who wish to use a pet. However, it is not a shaman required aa as long as you don't plan on petting. As clarification, neither of these will actually clear the pet's aggro list. Only /pet back off will do this.
Beastlords get Feral Guard, which absorbs four hits. These "block" spells are very useful normally, but completely useless when the mob has a ds. A damage shield counts as a "hit". Dots either may or may not count as a spell that can be blocked. It usually depends on whether they have a DD component. Debuffs are never blocked as far as I know.
Beastlords should not chain pets except for ranged fight situations. It costs us too much mana and our pets have lower hps. Also, we really need to add in our proc buff and haste before our pets come to full potential. This mana is better spent doing dps by chaining the DoDh werewolf pet and nuking. In addition, at this level a beastlord should outtank their pet unless they are really slacking. However, it is not a bad idea to keep a pet in reserve with suspend minion.
There's a very good pet pulling guide in the library (has been there for awhile). Feel free to read it and ask any questions you have.
On AH raids pets should never be told to attack before assist is called (or pet attack is called) on raid mobs even if the named is coming with adds. Positioning is very important and stopping a mob early can be detrimental to what we are doing. For example, a pet sent early can stop a mob before it reaches the raid and cause the raid to creep forward on engage. It's more acceptable if an add is coming from behind, but you should be ready to pull your pet off and put it back on the main mob as soon as an offtank has solid aggro or the mob is mezzed. You should also announce any adds that are not obvious with /raidsay.
As far as general pet discipline on raids, unless your pet is actively engaged on a mob you should have it on /pet hold at all times. That way if a mob with an AE comes in as a surprise your pet will not rush and attack it (potentially causing problems for the puller and tank...it also keeps you off the ramp list). What I personally do when we are engaging multiple mobs is hit my /pet hold hotkey when the mob is at around 5%. Even if there is lag, this usually puts the pet in neutral before it has a chance to engage the wrong enemy.
You should know where your pet is at all times on a raid. If you can't visually confirm where your pet is put it on hold. You should also be ready to /pet hold and reposition at any time. If all the pets are on one side of the mob (or melee for that matter) you are doing something wrong. This means casters with pets may have to move around the mob instead of staying back in a corner with the other squishies. For beastlords repositioning should be easier and more natural.
Use the /pet back off command consistantly. I have it tied into my hold hotkey. I also have it tied into my attack hotkey. Here is what I use...
Pet hold
Line 1: /pet hold
Line 2: /pet back off
Pet attack
Line 1: /pet back off
Line 2: /pet attack
If we are crawling, my pet is on hold. If we are fighting and I can't see my pet, it is on hold. If we have multiple mobs, my pet is on hold between each one. Make it reflexive. Associate it with something if you have to (like every time you see someone wearing red armor check if your pet is on hold). If you hit it twice it does not harm. If you don't hit it it can cause problems. Be overcautious rather than undercautious.
I was going to address the pet push issue, but you beat me to it Shieara
People have called me nuts when they see me constantly riding my horse around a mob repositioning my pets and trying to balance out push, or running rings round a mob while setting swarm pets on them. _________________ Beladonna A`tropine,
Level 70 Dark Elf Battle Mage (1101 AA's)
Hghest crit so far...11726 (32K vs summoned)
Who wants to marry me? I need a new pet!
Placos A'tropine,
Level 64 Dark Elf Warrior,
12 AAs
One question on the point Shieara mentioned regarding damage shields,
Don't clerics use mark of karn type spells anymore? _________________ Beladonna A`tropine,
Level 70 Dark Elf Battle Mage (1101 AA's)
Hghest crit so far...11726 (32K vs summoned)
Who wants to marry me? I need a new pet!
Placos A'tropine,
Level 64 Dark Elf Warrior,
12 AAs
Joined: Aug 14, 2005 Posts: 363 Location: SF Bay Area
Posted: Tue May 23, 2006 7:11 am Post subject:
Beladonna wrote:
One question on the point Shieara mentioned regarding damage shields,
Don't clerics use mark of karn type spells anymore?
we do, but usually it either gets resisted (at least on raid mobs ) or we don't want the extra damage the mob will take while beating on the tank from it (like if the mob spawns adds at certain %'s). We usually only use it when the DS on the mob is really large and it must be removed to keep people alive _________________
Ok, Kazpin, this brings me to a point I have mentioned many times in the past.
I still don't understand why a whole raid doesn't do a mass dispel on an uber boss mob on incoming, I mean these mobs must have buffs coming out of their ears, anything from symbols, damage shields, magic resists and strength.
Mages can summon staffs that carry a single charge of dispel magic on it, instant click cast, and very little agro.
Why not hand them out to rampage/primary/secondary tanks to debuff the mob before /tash/malo/slow hits them? This would remove the damage shield.
Even if everyone in a raid used annul, or single buff removal dispel, any pet or tank could take the agro in seconds. _________________ Beladonna A`tropine,
Level 70 Dark Elf Battle Mage (1101 AA's)
Hghest crit so far...11726 (32K vs summoned)
Who wants to marry me? I need a new pet!
Placos A'tropine,
Level 64 Dark Elf Warrior,
12 AAs
I would like to add something else here as well about the mage raging servant gargoyle pet.
I have tried this in group situations where the main tank is a paladin.
Sending these pets against a mob as I mentioned generates a massive amount of agro on these temporary pets.
Anyone can slow and debuff the mobs once these pets are on them without taking agro off them, and they are capable of taking a considerable amount of damage.
A paladin can stand back chain stunning these mobs, whether the stuns effect them or not, the paladins are still generating a huge amount of agro on themselves before they have even engaged the mob in melee, but these pets in their short lifespan will keep the agro off the paladin.
By the time these pets unsummon themselves, the pally has already generated far more agro than any debuffers or anyone else in the group/raid, so the mob will automatically go straight for the pally, pre-slowed and already fully debuffed without the pally having to tank an unslowed mob for any amount of time, and also no danger of slowers getting splatted before the tank has agro.
I have always believed that sometimes, when a mob is incoming, that pets should bear the brunt of an attack so the main tank can then step in and engage a mob that has already been slowed without having to engage a fast and hard hitting mob.
I like the idea of pets first, pally second to tank the mob only for a short while after generating ranged agro on themselves, then the main tank, a good solid warrior to take the agro from the pally once he has taunted the mob off him.
Ok, even though these pets do have a considerable amount of hitpoints, it is probable that one will go splat very quickly against an unslowed raid mob.
With four or Five mages casting these pets on the mob right at the start though, at least one of them should last the full twelve seconds. _________________ Beladonna A`tropine,
Level 70 Dark Elf Battle Mage (1101 AA's)
Hghest crit so far...11726 (32K vs summoned)
Who wants to marry me? I need a new pet!
Placos A'tropine,
Level 64 Dark Elf Warrior,
12 AAs
A few weeks ago, I got a new spell from skylance mission 3 called Iceflame Guard.
I have come to realize what a great spell this is during the last week, mostly while soloing in BOT, Devastation and POF.
This spell has a proc that happens on average about every seven or eight seconds I believe, though sometimes it seems to chain proc.
It has a very nice graphical effect of large chunks of ice falling on a mobs head and shattering, while the pet itself is wrapped in a glowing aura
The proc itself only does 150 points of damage, so only adds a little to the pets dps.
It does have a secondary effect though, everytime this procs, the pet is covered with a shield that will absorb 1 hit, or 1 spell of any strength, just like a 1/4 version of Bulwark of Calliav.
I am totally in love with this spell now, since I got it, I haven't had to heal my pet from any mobs AOE's and the pet now handles enrages/rampages a lot better, as well as tanking single mobs better, seeing as it is now taking around 10% less damage than before against a single mob.
On a different subject, I'd like to know what people think about my proposal in my reply above this one regarding what I call "transition agro pulling" where agro is transfered from pets to paladin then finally onto main tank to ensure the main tank doesn't have to stand against an unslowed mob.
Could this be a useful strategy? _________________ Beladonna A`tropine,
Level 70 Dark Elf Battle Mage (1101 AA's)
Hghest crit so far...11726 (32K vs summoned)
Who wants to marry me? I need a new pet!
Placos A'tropine,
Level 64 Dark Elf Warrior,
12 AAs
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