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Posted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 9:06 am Post subject: Some thoughts on progression.
I wanted to toss this out there since all the recent changes are affecting so many people.
With the recent gear additions from the MM's, we are now at a peak in DPS. Since we have a small amount of time, now is when we should charge hard into progressing, and beating some of the things that have stood in our way.
I know it feels good to chase after shiny loot wherever we can find it, but that is not a good long term plan. This game is built around a comprehensive progression scheme, if you don't follow it it comes back to bite you in the long run. My personal thoughts are we should use our current gear to launch us into crystallos. Our DPS is WAY up right now. We can use this to smash our way through MMM, and that would give us the knowledge of the events that would allow us to keep doing it once the new gear gets nerfed. If we use this time to learn the events, I think we'd be able to keep doing them after.
It's also possible to focus on SoD progression, and I think that would be slightly less beneficial but still good. Either way, it would take cutting out anything that isn't on the progression path for a couple weeks, or simply moving it to bonus raids so we can focus on moving forward. If we miss this opportunity now, while our DPS is high and our gear is greatly improved over recent times, it will not get any easier later.
Instead of chasing around in two expansions, I think it would be a good plan to tighten our focus for the next several weeks and get something accomplished. It would take some wiping, and some extra effort, but the rewards are big.
Just my thoughts, I'd like to know what others think.
Posted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 6:25 pm Post subject: Re: Some thoughts on progression.
Lostin wrote:
Our DPS is WAY up right now. We can use this to smash our way through MMM
Unfortunately MMM is not something you can just "smash". There is so much scripting of events that it takes time to learn. Yes, I agree we should do more of MMM, but don't think for a minute that our new levels and shiny new gear = instant win.
The Breakneck spawn thing still continues to bother us. Even when we do get to the end, we have yet to beat him (again, due to scripts and people following emotes and audio triggers, etc.).
Plan on dying, a lot.
The raid leaders (myself included), will have to get more information and researching done on the other events in MMM and hopefully get a plan together soon to attempt them.
We did Krond. We did Brinda. But still 4 more events to go.
Joined: Sep 18, 2007 Posts: 2631 Location: Augusta, WI
Posted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 11:21 pm Post subject:
One problem is flags. We need enough flagged folks to show up, to piggy others in.
Another is we need to go back and do a few flagging runs to flag those that weren't around for flagging.
A third is we can't "Plow" these events. They are scripted, and get progressively worse. 1 ninja afker can wipe us in the final events, from what I understand.
Then we have the problem of what classes show up each night. Thursday night we beat BMK3 with 0 clerics, and a lot of effort. Friday night we beat Krond, and had 7 clerics at one point. Same goes with warriors. The target on the calender is meaningless if the classes aren't there.
Lastly we have a problem with "cherry pickers". This is someone who thinks "I don't want to help with clear, I'll join an hour later" which slows down the raid. Another is "Nothing I want drops from that event, I'll join when xyz can drop".
Basically, it's a LOT harder to actually do then it sounds at first, Lostin. That said, it's something we're looking into.
Believe me, AH leadership is trying HARD to progress, it's just a LOT harder than it looks to the observer.
Could a group or so start early and clear the trash so we don't spend an hour and a half buffing and trash clearing? That way more time on events. _________________
If its a help....i can show up 30-60 min early on a specific night to help clear trash....im sure some others could too....just need to pre-arrange it...
I've never said progression is something we can simply smash, however there is no doubt in my mind that higher DPS and higher HP items make learning events easier.
I'm not at all saying the raids will be easy. We will still have a lot of work to do, but it would be much easier now vs after nerfing hits. If it's something we plan to do, I don't see the reasons you are stating for not pursuing it changing later. All of those things will need to be overcome sometime, and I think it makes it much easier if it's a stated goal we are focused on. Hitting it hard now makes a lot of sense to me, even if we have to back off some other events with shinier rewards to focus on it, we'll benefit more in the long run.
Joined: Feb 08, 2006 Posts: 508 Location: Mansfield, Texas
Posted: Sat Sep 26, 2009 11:16 pm Post subject: Progression
The thing is we arent haveing enough ppl to do the events we have been winning at, how can we do other events we havent even tried. I would love to keep adding new raid targets every couple weeks but in the real world of our raiding organization sometimes we hit stalls. This is proving to be a period of stalls. We are kinda stuck and cant move forward until more ppl start showing back up. The Future of AH rest entirly on the members. _________________ Laenyani
Muse of Bristlebane
"I remember when patchwork was uber"
Low attendance is because ppl wanna instant reward, then when you try progression for long term then ppl dont show up, easy.
That, what aergon said.
Basically is a matter of numbers a full raid have better chances to win an event than less that 40. We won krond on first try with full raid, we won brinda on 2nd try with full raid, with a full raid we can burn Queen quickly and reduce the risk from missed TLs ... even we can afford ppl missing TLs. Almost ALL is about numbers.
If you look at MMM flag list we have A LOT of ppl flagged for MMM ... but simply they dont show up.
Of course i am for progress and schedule events like Bargangle, Tactical Prototype, Kithicor, Crystal Core .. Meldrath ! ... but like Laeny said AH rest in the members, if no member no raids .. thats simple. _________________
Of course i am for progress and schedule events like Bargangle, Tactical Prototype, Kithicor, Crystal Core .. Meldrath ! ... but like Laeny said AH rest in the members, if no member no raids .. thats simple.
That actually clearly shows that I'm not being understood. I'm not talking about a generalized idea of progression, and trying anything new wherever. I'm talking about the idea of simply slating a week for trying new events in a single theme. Tighten focus down, and try to bash through MMM, or SOD. One of them, spend the whole week bashing one event if we had to. Yes, I really do think we have the capability to progress through this if we apply ourselves.
I also strongly disagree with Aergon's opinion of things. I really feel that the low attendance is due to a loss of momentum. It's not because we wiped a few times, but because we haven't wiped enough. I think the low attendance speaks more to boredom than people being unwilling to work through the content. Seems to me, it's more a function of people saying "hohum, same thing as last week?" than not wanting to show up to get wiped on new stuff.
Maybe I'm wrong, wouldn't be the first time. I think the truth is likely we are both partially correct, and there are members out for quick gain, and members who'd be willing to do the work to learn new events. I can only speak for myself in saying that if we slated a week for focused progression, I'd do everything I could to show up and kick some butt.
I'm not hearing many people speak up and agree with me though. Oh well, I tried.
Joined: Apr 01, 2005 Posts: 1202 Location: West Virginia
Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 6:13 am Post subject:
I understand what you are saying lostin and I like your enthusiasm and I wish the rest of the AH membership had the same. Unfortunatly only a few of you seem to feel that way. The problem we have when we try to, as you say, bashing one event, is that our attendence seems to drop off and then we dont have enough to win, sometimes. Numbers are our key and if we can get a full raid force 4 nights in a row then it is possable that we could do this.
Alot of raiders are here just to get a new loot to make themselves better and move on, I am fine with that since we are about the only stepping stone to a real raid guild for some. I am really not the one to be saying things anymore since my playtimes are all over the place and I only seem to be able to raid sparadiaclly now days but, loot is just a bonus to me I just like seeing the content and the members of AH together taking down the system as a unit. That is my real loot, haveing fun with you all and seeing new things.
I would love to progress through MMM, I hate these scripts, and move to Cryst and SoD but at the same time we need a solid core of AH members that will show every time in order to do that. I dont know about you all but eveytime I try to plan ahead and make plans to show up to an event and raid something usually gets in the way, damn RL. Currently we have only beaten-3?-events in MMM and we still have the hardest of them ahead of us. Considering that we have only been in MMM for a few months now I think we are doing ok since we have really been trying to work in other events to break up the monotony of MMM.
So far so good I say and maybe with the change in the seasons and more people staying in we will have that core shortly in order to focus on finishing MMM and moving on.
You are also welcome to volunteer to lead these raids you want since we are always looking for new meat to lead us down the path of redemption. _________________ 85 Ranger|85 Shaman
Plus 85 Cleric
spend the whole week bashing one event if we had to.
That idea works for the big raid guilds who raid 5 days a week. However, it's a bit harder for us. Ok, so you want to do 4 nights in a row on one event, who is going to lead it? Nobody here is going to run a raid 4 nights in a row. I'm lucky if I get more than 1 night a week to play.
Lostin wrote:
I think the low attendance speaks more to boredom than people being unwilling to work through the content.
That part I do personally agree with a little, but not in general. I don't want to do the same 7-8 raids week after week after week just to get loot.
However, there are many who do want to raid to win loot, period. If they find out we are doing event_X this week and it's most likely going to be 3 hours of wiping over and over, those people don't show up.
I don't know how many times I've heard comments like "Wow, 2.5 hours now and we haven't killed anything, what a waste." Or, "This 1 hour of trash clearing in MMM is such a waste, we should have had loot by now".
As it stands right now, we might have to put MMM on hold for a week and go back and do more flagging. I had 4 people last week who couldn't get into the raid because we had to many unflagged.
To a couple of points brought up in this tread and recently...
I was a lot more excited about raiding with AH back when I was apping because I thought we were breaking into MMM and were gonna pick up there with a standard progression path i.e. MMM, Crystallos, SoD and beyond.
I am not really into hopping around all over place for good lootz myself, although I do like new shiny things as much as the next guy. I also am not a consistent enough player time wise to join a real raiding guild. I understand why AH does what AH does though. There are many folks that raid with us that are from true raiding guilds and AH is just a passtime because they get progression with their guild. There are many others that raid with us whos guilds used to be raiding or family raiding guilds before mudflation in SoF. I being one of the latter depend on AH for any real shot at better gear or progression. Some want gear, some want the progression, some want both.
Recently a coworker that I have played EQ with for years off and on has returned to the game and I have been hanging out with him and catching him up. Playing with him I have started leveling my Paladin again who had been trapped at 70 for more than a year. I am enjoying the change of pace and playstyle.
I am not cherry picking targets, I have not left, I just raid when my friend is not around because grouping with friends is much faster paced, more interactive, and more immersive to me. I hope you understand.... _________________
Joined: Feb 08, 2006 Posts: 508 Location: Mansfield, Texas
Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 7:44 am Post subject: Progression
I agree hitting the same targets for 8 or more weeks in a row can get very boring, It can also be a reason ppl stop coming. But if you think about it all the times we have hit the queen she has only dropped the dagger once i believe. How many players would still love that dagger. Theres still lots of loot on those targets that many People still want none of it is going to rot and most still go for 5 dkp.
That aside I agree attempting a new raid at least every mont is a good idea. I do understand what your saying Lostin. My point was how can we attempt a new and harder raid when we arent getting the attendance. Even if we put it on the calendar its not like many ppl read it because every night at least 50% ask where are we meeting. _________________ Laenyani
Muse of Bristlebane
"I remember when patchwork was uber"
Joined: Apr 01, 2005 Posts: 1202 Location: West Virginia
Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 8:26 am Post subject: Re: Progression
laenyani wrote:
I agree hitting the same targets for 8 or more weeks in a row can get very boring, It can also be a reason ppl stop coming. But if you think about it all the times we have hit the queen she has only dropped the dagger once i believe. How many players would still love that dagger. Theres still lots of loot on those targets that many People still want none of it is going to rot and most still go for 5 dkp.
That aside I agree attempting a new raid at least every mont is a good idea. I do understand what your saying Lostin. My point was how can we attempt a new and harder raid when we arent getting the attendance. Even if we put it on the calendar its not like many ppl read it because every night at least 50% ask where are we meeting.
We will have 50 people in the AH channel and only 15 of them post on this website, I wonder how many actually come to this site and try to get involved. That is the hardest part, getting everyone involved and on the same page.
As long as RL does not screw me tonight I am so gonna be on for the flagging raid since I am hoping to get the shaman fully flagged to make room for more piggies. _________________ 85 Ranger|85 Shaman
Plus 85 Cleric
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