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Posted: Tue Jun 30, 2009 1:29 pm Post subject: Capped out raids
Background
The last 12 months have been a wild ride. Those of you that rode it all the way through will acknowledge that our attendance was so low for a time that we were about ready to close our doors. Due to this we've been pushing recruitment for a full year, and collectively we've done a awesome job. We went from 24 people this time last year, to 60 now. The trouble is, expeditions and tasks only allow 54. It's a great problem to have, but a problem nonetheless.
The management has been discussing this issue for a while, in fact it's an issue we tossed around back during fabled before the problem came up. Unfortunately we haven't come up with a really nice plan like we did with the tier system. So we're throwing the problem up to full debate so collectively we can find the best solution.
Problem
Over 54 people show up to raid on events that don't allow more than 54 people. Slowing down our recruitment is a no-brainer, but still what do we do with the extra raiders each night?
Ideas
1. The extras sit outside the instance in case we get room, earning dkp and tier for their attendance (since they Are attending, just as all those lucky enough to get into the expedition). If we get an LD/logger we're then able to immediately replace them, which is very useful to the raid. But we're essentially wasting the time of most of the people waiting outside, which is lousy.
2. Have the extras grouping/mini raiding something useful - killing the octa group mob, working on documents etc. This gives the extras a purpose which allows them to work for the dkp/tier. But we lose potential reinforcements to LD/loggers, and it's a lot of extra management to give the extras a task to do, monitor it, record their names and manually add them to the dump, etc.
3. Have a AHlfg channel. People in the channel can go do whatever they like, and listen out for spots opening up. While they don't earn dkp/tier, they're also not wasting their time. If a spot does open up, it's offered to whomever is closest to the instance, with priority given to those waiting outside. This also takes a level of administration to see who can make it to the raid in time and to keep communication with the extras, but it's easily managed by one ah management member. This essentially a compromise between the last two options, with milder pros/cons.
4. Operate under first-come-first-served. Very very fair, but disastrous from a raid point-of-view as we'll be lacking essential classes. I'm mentioning the idea though in case someone can evolve it into a better system.
5. Raid leader selects who's in and who's out. This is the best system in terms of balancing the raid, but it's very unfair. It means the same few tanks or low dps will continuously have to sit out of the raid while we save room for the needed classes. Being unable to gain loot, these characters won't be able to win upgrades and will be stuck in a never ending cycle.
6. Embrace high attendance and in fact keep recruiting until we have enough members to split the raid force in two, each with enough room to hit targets. On paper this looks great, but it is a administrative NIGHTMARE. It means a huge increase in the numbers of management, time wasted balancing two raid forces, lots and lots of lockout issues, complaints by raiders wanting to be in one force not the other, etc etc. I like the out-of-the-box thinking with this idea, but it's impractical.
7. Something else. This is really where we're hoping the solution comes from because all the other ideas mentioned have significant flaws.
So think about it, toss some ideas around, and lets work on a good solution. If nothing else, please remember this post next time you're sitting outside the raid waiting for a spot. We hate making you wait, we do care about you, and we're trying hard to come up with a better system! _________________ http://www.spamhelp.org/harvesterkiller/
Why don't we go on a cycle out system? When we done with one target cycle out some raiders for those waiting for next target. This way all would have a opp for at least some dkp/tiers and we have full raid for all targets. Just a idea
Perhaps you could try a volunteer and reward system similar to what they do when they overbook an flight on an airline and you let the attendant know that you're willing to take a bump, or whatever it is that they call it.
The airline aren't legally required to give you anything for your volunteering to take a later flight so that someone else can have your place but most airlines offer something so that there is an incentive to take the bump.
I believe most airlines offer food coupons and a free domestic ticket or an overnight stay in a hotel, I've read an article on digg about volunteering to take bumps for fun and profit a while ago.
So my idea would be this:
If there are members sitting out of the raid and we kill the raid target you could let your Squad Leader (or make a special new class for handling this) that you are volunteering to be cycled out of the raid in favor of someone who had been waiting.
If you are an important class, like a shaman or enchanter and there isn't one to replace you your volunteering might be noted, but not used as such things would be at the discretion of the Squad or Raid Leader.
But, if your volunteering is acceptable you will leave the raid for someone else who is waiting.
Obviously there has to be some kind of incentive for this and the obvious answer there is DKP.
BUT
I don't think there should be a set amount of how much you're going to be given. It should depend on the mob, if its a farming mob vs one that is part of progression and also how many people are waiting.
If you Volunteer to be cycled out on a farming mob where 2 people are waiting and people are likely going to bed soon anyway that should logically be worth less "incentive DKP" than volunteering to be cycled out on a progression mob where 9 people are waiting and no one is planning on going to bed anytime soon.
The Squad Leaders (or make a new set of people to handle this because I know the Squad Leaders are already very busy) would decide upon the appropriate amount of incentive DKP for the mob and that is what you would get.
Admittedly the system relies on everyone in After Hours being good people who are willing to make a little sacrifice here and there for one another but I don't believe that is too much to ask.
As a cleric, for example, I am aware that 9 times out of 10 I'm likely to make it onto a raid because I'm a necessary class over another tank, or another monk (just examples, not trying to slight anyone!)
However, if its a fight that requires 4 healers and there is 6 of us I'd volunteer to sit out. Heck, it'll give me a chance to get out of my work clothes and grab something to eat. Often-times I come straight from work, sit my butt down at the computer and its woo! raiding time!
I hope that makes sense to everyone, if not, just ask and I will do my best to explain more concisely.
That's exactly the kind of out-of-the-box thinking I was talking about! You'd have to be very careful with the incentives to make it work however. Too much and we'd get a dip of attendance, in fact we'd be the stupid raid group paying our members Not to attend! Too little and we wouldn't get volunteers. However getting to remove someone you don't have room for and doesn't mind leaving is a hundred times better than removing someone who really wants to raid.
You'll also get some people abusing the system. Announcing to be volunteers to leave... then when they're not dropped will decide they want to go to bed anyways (ie scheming to get the free dkp even though they were heading to bed anyway). This then leaves us a player short too.
Hopefully the payoff of both Loot and just keeping in practice with your toon will take care of most of the "paying people not to raid" issues.
I agree that some might abuse it but then that could already be happening.
What is to stop someone purposefully getting to a raid right at the close mark, like with literally a minute to spare, gambling that the raid will already be full and they will have to sit out?
As I said the system relies on AH members being decent human beings but I believe we all are so hopefully the balance between incentive DKP and regular DKP can be reached.
I do believe incentive DKP should be less than what you would get if you were on the raid but as you said "getting to remove someone you don't have room for and doesn't mind leaving is a hundred times better than removing someone who really wants to raid. "
I'm glad you like the idea, hopefully it can work to everyone satisfaction.
I personally like the idea because it rewards those who took a hit for the team, rather than those who would have been waiting anyway.
Joined: Apr 01, 2005 Posts: 1202 Location: West Virginia
Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 7:46 am Post subject:
Hasseo75 wrote:
Yeah, that sounds really good but just a little change:
Spiritwind wrote:
Obviously there has to be some kind of incentive for this and the obvious answer there is DKP.
Tiers are best reward.
Sounds good except for this part
spiritwind wrote:
As I said the system relies on AH members being decent human beings but I believe we all are
We have a very large infulx of new toons and we are all getting use to each other so some of this is true but we all know that there are bad apples eveywhere you go and I am a codger that really does not trust anyone but my immediate family.
I think this is a good idea but I think that volunteers need to make themselves known to the RL/SL before we engage the target they are planning to leave after.
Example: I show up for the on time bonus get in the raid and then before we even know what we are going to hit I announce to my SL that I am a volunteer to be cut after this raid.
I dont think that you should get a reward for going to bed nor do I think a cherry picker should get a reward when they find out we are going to hit a target they dont want any part of! Also you can only volunteer if we have Toons waiting to get in before we know what we are going to hit. If you want to be a volunteer you should have to announce it before we know what target we are going to hit or you get nada, that seems like a level playing field to me. Of course some will be able to abuse this but they will also miss out on the loots for the night.
I am with Hasseo I would rather get tiers than I would get dkp, but then I try to make it to every raid I can to keep my dkp up.
Tiers = better chance to win what you are after. _________________ 85 Ranger|85 Shaman
Plus 85 Cleric
Joined: Jan 23, 2008 Posts: 198 Location: St. Louis, MO.
Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 8:26 am Post subject:
I agree with both points of rewards but again these days it is very tough to gain DKP where each target you have you get a tier from. This is a tough decision and can also be left in the hands of the volunteer too. But this adds more difficulty to the system as well. _________________
I don't want to get side tracked on dkp/tier too much, but those of us that value tiers highly do so because we have more dkp than we'll ever spend. We have lots and lots of members who are high enough in tier to win items, but can only afford one or maybe two 5dkp items. So a large number of members (maybe 25%) probably value dkp ahead of tier. _________________ http://www.spamhelp.org/harvesterkiller/
If you want in on a raid, get there early. If that means 15-30 mins early, then do what it takes. At our dinner table, its he who hesitates is lost. If raids fill up early, then hey - more time for the RL / SLs to sort groups and plan targets and for the raid to move to where the festivities are to be held. Early start means early finish!
If Joe the tank, or Pete the healer is late, well, they're late and sit until a spot opens on next target or whenever (without being "paid"). Life goes on and raids happen. If someone (besides the RL obviously) is SO important that the raid needs them, then it's high time for the other 53 or so raiders to step up and compensate and learn to succeed without that certain individual toon.
Adjusting content to make it harder by reducing the number of raiders is the way SOE has decided to go. If too many are getting shut out of raids, then the answer is to increase the number of raid nights from 4 to 5, or more. This means that more than one RL is needed to "shoulder my burden" as Wwein would say very soon. Steps are already in place to train more RL - way to step up Elric.
It's simple economics - if demands out strips supply, then increase supply, and vice versa. But, don't lower the price by paying toons to sit. That just increases demand as people take advantage of a possible free ride.
Your point is good Div, but remember we want to keep 54 full raids, you need a bench for it... Bench in baseball or football do it for free?
If you dont try compensate in some way ppl than is there but out of first 54, maybe you got raid with lower 40s in few weeks, because AH members have a wide diferent schedule, some day we hit 60 or 63 like today, but somedays you only get 50, some weeks ppl play and the next no.
We dont have 54 fix players doing the raids, we need play with numbers for try keep the high attendance without hurting ppl than is there early for raid.
Joined: Mar 02, 2006 Posts: 1688 Location: San Jose California
Posted: Fri Jul 03, 2009 8:12 am Post subject:
I really like what Divinax has to say here, but I still am leaning in the opposite direction. My heart tells me that Div is right and people just need to GOTA and get moving on time. That said, I think those that are sitting out should get a reward IF they are doing something, anything to further progress toward our goals. i.e. get flagged for MMM raids or help others do so. Whatever it is, no riding the coat tails of other players. _________________
I partly agree and partly disagree. Just as some people have to log before the final target, others can't log on until after the first. It's not a matter of being late, its a matter of getting off work, putting the kids to bed, making dinner etc. To earn the dkp and/or tier these people have to be lfg BEFORE strats have started to be given. Anyone that announces lfg after this will not be added to the raid until after the raid is over, and will not earn dkp/tier. These people are considered late for the event... but are also early for the following event. This is how I'm currently handling the extras.
I wouldn't object to an extra raid night a week, but 4 is my absolute limit. Sunday is celebration night in our family (birthdays, anniversaries, etc etc), Monday is night with my in-laws, and Tuesday is mine and Lae's date night. I can't give up any of those. But if another RL is willing to lead on tuesdays I think it's a great idea. We currently have more available targets in a week than we have time to do, so an extra night would help fix that. Again, another out of the box idea we hadn't thought of but could really help - good idea! _________________ http://www.spamhelp.org/harvesterkiller/
Ok - I am a new member so maybe its unfair after I snuck in but here is what I think.
Raise the AA requirements by a LOT.
I know i mentioned the otherday the rogue stuff was a joke, and someone said all AA are going to have an overhaul but...
Don't skimp here on AA requirement. You get a bonus to AA xp up to 1000 AAs now. If you want to RAID why should you show up w/ 400 aas at level 85? It's just not cutting it.
Have class leaders sort out whats needed, and base the AA requirements around 750 to 1000 AA.
Enforce stuff like epics, other odd useful items etc. I myself am missing that silly corpse finder gnome item. This is a useful tool for rogues and we should all be required to have one.
Stuff like that to recruit better players and slow down the apps.
This might not solve the problem overnight, but its going to down the road, and at the very least will increase the quality of characters (perhaps their play skill still sux ) that come.
*edit* Why not require the MPG trials you have suggested to everyone to get. They aren't hard, they get put off because people feel them not so imporant etc. I'm still missing 2 myself. Just another thought on getting quality players over numbers. _________________
Joined: Apr 01, 2005 Posts: 1202 Location: West Virginia
Posted: Sat Jul 11, 2009 2:16 pm Post subject:
Rwekk wrote:
Ok - I am a new member so maybe its unfair after I snuck in but here is what I think.
Raise the AA requirements by a LOT.
I know i mentioned the otherday the rogue stuff was a joke, and someone said all AA are going to have an overhaul but...
Don't skimp here on AA requirement. You get a bonus to AA xp up to 1000 AAs now. If you want to RAID why should you show up w/ 400 aas at level 85? It's just not cutting it.
Have class leaders sort out whats needed, and base the AA requirements around 750 to 1000 AA.
Enforce stuff like epics, other odd useful items etc. I myself am missing that silly corpse finder gnome item. This is a useful tool for rogues and we should all be required to have one.
Stuff like that to recruit better players and slow down the apps.
This might not solve the problem overnight, but its going to down the road, and at the very least will increase the quality of characters (perhaps their play skill still sux ) that come.
*edit* Why not require the MPG trials you have suggested to everyone to get. They aren't hard, they get put off because people feel them not so imporant etc. I'm still missing 2 myself. Just another thought on getting quality players over numbers.
Sorry but for as long as I can remember this organization has not been ellietest and I dont want it to turn in to that either. We would miss alot of really good players and get a lot of dicks who only play eq for a life (not pointing any fingers just saying that is usually what it turns out to be), I dont think that is what we want. Plus when you put those restraints in there next it will be manditory raiding. If I wanted that I would apply to CF, RoV or some other full time outfit, just not us out of choice.
I can think of many in this group that have families, I am a familiy of 6 and the sole pervidor for them, I have been plaing acoma as my main since 03 so you can see I dont have that kind of time. There are going to be nights when we are over crowded and nights when we are light, I will make it or I wont but life goes on. I think it is great that we want to reward toons for being benched, we are trying to keep it all from crashing down in other words, but my dinner table has always been like Divin's, you hesitate you may miss your spot.
I will support any decisions made as long as they are reasonable and they look at the long term and not the short. I trust the managment team of AH more then most real people I know. _________________ 85 Ranger|85 Shaman
Plus 85 Cleric
Although I value your point that AH doesnt want high end restrictions and jerks for players I do think times have changed.
I am new to AH, I am a returning player, but has AH ever been raiding Current expansion raid content before?
Open your doors up to poorly geared, low AA, not so great players and offer them SoD raid gear.....and you will always have too many players.
But I too will stand beside what ever decision they make, was just tossing out some info. I am totally enjoying the raiding w/ afterhours. It's perfect for me - well almost I wish we were on east coast time
Just to shed more light on what i was thinking. Here is the current Rogue AA requirement. It's already been told to me that this will change. How much is what I was suggesting.
These total have to equal something like 75 AA, heck maybe less even. This requirements had to be set for Plane of Time era.
When I leveled up, i felt at level 80 about 750 AA was good for my class. And 85 1000 AA seems nice w/ 1500 AA (which i'm not yet) being a really good number to having most useful AA's capped.
Yes Club FU requires 1500 AA for their rogues and I was not suggesting that high. _________________
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